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View Full Version : Bring back non-noob-shock grenade



CptSolo
09-28-2012, 09:32 AM
Stun duration is too long. It encourages every wannabe, every exploiter and every gladjolder to use it 24/7. Especially small maps are just facepalm when the first guy brings shock grenade. Soon everyone switches to it and even dampening field is not suitable as counter if you dont want to noob camp all the time...

I dont get it anyway. So many kids whining when the stun was 1.2 seconds? Even 1 second would totally suffice.

Reduce the stun duration to 1.2 seconds again or at least reduce area of effect. or REMOVE AOF and make the stun grenade only stun on direct hit... (you could decrease cooldown then, feel ok with that).

Just make it used more seldom. Currently its the most commonly spammed ability besides RAI and Liquid Armour.
Its really annoying.

And to the forum trolls: yes, I know how to evade the shock grenade. And yes, sometimes I use it too, but not as PRIMARY ability/weapon/source of kills because it does not feel "right" to use it.
Still its just retarded, you cant walk 10 steps on Olympa Mill without some retarded stun grenade flies arround. And if you are stunned, it means you are dead 9 out of 10 times, no matter what is ur setup.

Stun grenade is just too powerfull atm, too easy to use and has no sufficient counter with still immobile and therefor not very usefull EDF and stun duration reduction clotehs that are noting but a joke (-10%, i mean cmon, its 1,44 seconds instead of 1,6, you kiddin me?!

I know its vital for the ingame balance and for the meta to stop trolls especially, but it should not be so strong that corrosion grenades, molotovs and even C4 are no valuable options anymore.

Hatecrew66
09-28-2012, 10:37 AM
it has increased much more because of the unkillable setup RAI + enhanced met and those regen boosts...maybe after they fix RAI it will get better...in other words, I use lvl 15 boosts and cant kill people with lvl 40 or 50 boosts + those abilities, so, the only way is to stun them...

Hatecrew66
09-28-2012, 10:37 AM
but, for sure, it could be a bit harder to use anyway...

tikulti
09-28-2012, 10:53 AM
Duration is just perfect now, considering there are option to decrease shock duration, 1.2 was too low even before anti schock boost and clothes existed. It is perfectly balanced, not too short , not too long. But as i suggested long time ago, Chemtex Forceward (or what is its name, i never use it so i am not 100% sure) should be E-Gene instead of serum, so anti shock/fire boost is actually usable. It would not solve your desire to nerf shock nade to oblivion so nobody will use it, but it would make anti schock build more viable.

Septimus
09-28-2012, 11:49 AM
This is a problem that could only be encounter by class user, since class user lack of sufficient shock counter build.

What they need is to introduces a new class with shock proof build.

Shock duration as for now are just fine.

CptSolo
09-28-2012, 12:43 PM
Erm...

1. "Counter Build"
There is no counterbuild to shock grenade. Theoretically you can counter shock with EDF, but that is not very appropriate and also not a guaranteed success. Still I find it quite funny to drop EDF when Shock comes in and shoot the guy who starts walking straight towards me because he thinks I am stunned.
But those are very rare occassions.
I remember when shock duration was 3 seconds. I had ALL my custom profiles (no classes back then, they didnt exist) with EDF and AUG and it was just plain boring playing like that. Enemy showing up, "press F", shock grenade poffs, normal fight. Why not just drop that **** and start fighting in the first place -.-

2. Classes and Shock Grenade
Btw: class profiles make shock grenade too easily available and therefore too wide spread. Kamikaze, Outlaw, Sewer Rat are popular because of stun grenade only (ppl just dont know how to use corrosion grenades anymore lol...)
And when u have a stun grenade its pretty much unimportant what else u bring...

3. Shock vs. Corrosion Grenade
The problem is: naturally the corrosion grenade should be the counter to something like a high hp-high resist-RAI troll build.
And still it CAN be used for that. But compared to shock grenade its just awefully weak, because it takes so much time to use it and the effect of it is not making "anything" (like providing damage, stunning etc.) So you still have to shoot the corroded target to take advantage of the effect. In that time, a sigma has emptied its whole magazine into your belly...

So maybe the corrosion and shock grenade balance as to be looked up carefully. I know, you have two corrosion grenades, but that is not helping much for the reasons mentioned above.

If often said corrosion grenade needs a buff (like a corroding cloud staying there for a short while, or and additional effect like reduced accuracy and damage output, because the weapon is also "corroded" or sth like that.

OR, to let the stun duration as it is now; increase cooldown, reduce stun radius (or remove it).

OR: Stun AUG:
Change normal stun grenade to 1.2 seconds.
Change Stun grenade AUG to: gives +50% stun duration (so its acutally even 1.8 seconds) but reduces stun duration to direct hit only. So you can stun only one opponent, but you CANNOT stun urself, what makes the shock grenade very usefull in some situations.
So you could chose between:

Basic Shock grenade with average splash radius and 1,2 sec stun
Special Shock grenade with no radius but 1,8 sec stun and no self stun with AUG.

Sounds like a perfect solution for all, eh?
And dont tell me stuff now, since you all are super pro u will be able to aim the grenade on ur target, no?
I mean, there are ppl who hit my head with their frag grenades lol xD from half the map away.

Atypical
09-28-2012, 05:20 PM
the best solution is to remove shock nade, its one of the dumbest I win buttons in the game.

Septimus
09-28-2012, 06:07 PM
There is no counterbuild to shock grenade.

There are efficient counter build to shock grenade for custom profiles user for now, but there is little to none classes that have efficient counter build for it. For a custom profiles user, they are capable to achieve 55% shock resistant (For wallet warrior) and 35%-45% for free user.

Even if you are lowbies, as long as you are custom profile user. You are still capable to achieve 30% shock resistant. Since shock grenade was rarely in used by lowbies while most high end user are often custom profiles user; it is quite a norm to see nobody complain about it since their custom build could provide decent protection against it.

A Blast Helmet ability with AUG provide a very high shock resist (25%), but this ability doesn't exist at any classes and the highest shock resist any classes own for now are barely 10%; which are very minimal.


(ppl just dont know how to use corrosion grenades anymore lol...)

They know how to use, is just that it isn't as practical as corrosive shot and incendiary round.

Corrosive Grenade - Reduces 50% resistant
Corrosive Shot - Reduces 100% resistant.

Corrosive Grenade - Reduces 100% stamina for 10 second.
Incendiary Round - Reduces 20% stamina per sec for 10 second (Burn target and the counter reset for each fire round hit).

Let's not forgot Corrosive Grenade tossing range have limit and you could miss your target if they are too far. This not going to happen with CS and IR.

The only perk CG have against CS and IR is that it was an ability that combine both their element into 1, but who in their right mind want to use it since CG only reduces resistant by 50% and not going to work in EDF?


3. Shock vs. Corrosion Grenade
The problem is: naturally the corrosion grenade should be the counter to something like a high hp-high resist-RAI troll build.
And still it CAN be used for that. But compared to shock grenade its just awefully weak, because it takes so much time to use it and the effect of it is not making "anything" (like providing damage, stunning etc.) So you still have to shoot the corroded target to take advantage of the effect. In that time, a sigma has emptied its whole magazine into your belly...

I don't agree with it being weak, it's just that it's roles was stolen by CS and IR. The CG either need additional property to makes it useful or have 1 of it property (Either resistant or stamina reduction) replaced with a different effect to encourage player to use it.

Hence, your idea of adding cloud that reduces accuracy could be the new element that are just what CG needed. On the other hand, I do not agree with any nerfing or changes with shock mainly because they are very well balances for custom profiles user, what they need to look forward to is to either introduces a new classes with shock and fire proof build or changes some of the class equipment to provide them a decent protection against it.

CptSolo
09-28-2012, 11:36 PM
As I said back when they were introduced: shock resistant and fire reistant clothes are nonsense.
I barely see them used, if even anybody uses them for a non-tournament purpose at all.

I saw ONE guy playing with Liquid Helmet and -25% shock resistant, but his build was just ridiculous in any other fashion.

Equipping shock reistant/fire resistant clothes leaves u just awefully vulnerable to any other stuff and minimizes your build options because your clothes bonuses are wasted.
Also, even 55% shock resistant does not help. When u are stunned and you have all ur clothes bonuses wasted for that, you probably dead anyway.
A skilled player dont need more than half a second to kill u with Sigma.


What I want to say: only REAL counter to something would be 100% resistant.

Since all in CC is hard counter most of the time, I cannot understand the useless soft counters vs fire and shock anyway.
It should be possible to reach 100% immunity to fire and/or shock with clothes.

Septimus
09-29-2012, 05:47 AM
Equipping shock reistant/fire resistant clothes leaves u just awefully vulnerable to any other stuff and minimizes your build options because your clothes bonuses are wasted.


It should be possible to reach 100% immunity to fire and/or shock with clothes.

Do you even see anything without it's own flaw? Even ability and boost have it's downside as well. Just look at player who focus on clothes that provide fire damage bonus, they would be in downside as much as you did if anybody use fire resistant clothes against them.

Everything was created with it's up and down. Expecting a full immunity is like requesting a boost with 100% resistant.


Also, even 55% shock resistant does not help. When u are stunned and you have all ur clothes bonuses wasted for that, you probably dead anyway.
A skilled player dont need more than half a second to kill u with Sigma.

You forgot that custom profiles user have variant of way to counter it which is something class does not have it. With shock effect duration being reduces down to 0.9 sec or less, it doesn't matter how sigma was spread; you could still survive.

Main issues does not lies on the abilities for now, but mainly lies on the lack of classes with decent fire/shock resistant. How many classes out there with at least 20% shock/fire resistant?

CptSolo
09-29-2012, 09:08 AM
Do you even see anything without it's own flaw? Even ability and boost have it's downside as well. Just look at player who focus on clothes that provide fire damage bonus, they would be in downside as much as you did if anybody use fire resistant clothes against them.

Everything was created with it's up and down. Expecting a full immunity is like requesting a boost with 100% resistant.



You forgot that custom profiles user have variant of way to counter it which is something class does not have it. With shock effect duration being reduces down to 0.9 sec or less, it doesn't matter how sigma was spread; you could still survive.

Main issues does not lies on the abilities for now, but mainly lies on the lack of classes with decent fire/shock resistant. How many classes out there with at least 20% shock/fire resistant?


Fire build cannot be compared to any defensive clothes providing Shock or Fire resistance. That is because the fire build clothes can HURT everybody. While Shock and Fire resistant is maybe uselss like 50-90% of the game time.
Regarding the fact, that you barely ever have profit from those clothes makes the -10% shock duration and such much too low.

There is no need for a "counter class" vs Shock Grenade. That class is "Sewer Rat" already. It counters with own shock and/or its EDF. A class specialised arround anti-shock would be 700k you can only use sometimes when somebody spams shock grenade, while it would be quite weak and not very usefull vs anything else. Also, you would have to provide a class profile alone for that class...

Also, I can imagine no really creative build arround Liquid Helmet, because headshots are just no issue at all in this game. At least, when it comes to wasting an ability slot for it.
Ha, I will make a thread about this.

Septimus
09-29-2012, 11:26 AM
While Shock and Fire resistant is maybe uselss like 50-90% of the game time.

Every build have it's own pro & *** and depends on what your opponent build are. For example, my build are as good as useless for 50-90% of the game if I focus on light and medium resistant while all my enemies are using heavy weapon.

That is why we have multiple profiles for it.


There is no need for a "counter class" vs Shock Grenade. That class is "Sewer Rat" already. It counters with own shock and/or its EDF. A class specialised arround anti-shock would be 700k you can only use sometimes when somebody spams shock grenade, while it would be quite weak and not very usefull vs anything else. Also, you would have to provide a class profile alone for that class...

Do you think custom profiles user doesn't spend a lot just for a single profiles that are shock & fire proof? Building a profiles that are specialize at 1 point ain't cheap at first place.

If you do not like the idea of having a new classes with counter for it, then use EDF. EDF cooldown isn't that big enough to make you completely immobilize.

CptSolo
09-29-2012, 11:38 AM
Ok, then I explain it more clearly:

I like abilities to be counterable also by player skill, not only by "having and using" them.
I dont want to rely on my build only to counter a certain enemy ability with some one sided build, exploit or own ability.

Shock grenade is the only ability besides RAI that I cannot counter with skill effiecently, because its availability (cooldown), area of effect, stun duration and useability (activaction, targeting and flying speed of the grenade) is all in favour of the user of the shock grenade.
In simple words: its too easy to use, and at the same time too hard to counter by only using WASD and Space.
When it was 1,2 seconds, I could still escape sometimes before getting killed. I could roll away when he comes with knife jump (means I had to predict his behaviour) or sidestep/shoot when he started firing with sigma or something.
I could also just survive with luck, because he used Rask to kill me and missed some shots in the 1,2 seconds time window he had. But with 1,6, the chance to do that is drastically reduced.

In rough numbers I would say: with 1,2 seconds stun I had a 30% chance to survive stun due to enemy inability to hit a not moving target or my own skill in predicting his attempt to kill me and counter it when out of stun immeaditly. With 1,6 seconds its only 5-10% chance to survive and even then, survival is less likely when out of stun because of extreme low health.

Point taken? :)

PS: from a game called League of Legends I had most "stunning" experiences with stun and stun counter measures. They have two important effects to counter stun. Decreasing stun duration by 40% through usage of a pair of shoes (mercury treads) OR an item called "Banshees Veil" which provided immunity to ONE effect in 30-45 seconds.
That kind of choice I miss for CrimeCraft. An energy field protecting from the first stun/corrosion/molotov/missile/rocket/grenade hitting me, then beeing on cooldown for XX seconds.
Something like that would add an interesting counter effect, which would not require any more balancing of Mastiffs, GLs, Shock grenades or such stuff.
Also you could still counter that ability too, by first hitting it with another ability and disable it, and then stun. But it is more difficult, you know? Same for the user of the energy field. He would have to dodge still to not easily lose his shield to a random Frag grenande bouncing against him or a corrosion grenade which would not stun him at least, but wait for the moment where a stun grenade or molotov flies towards him to change his behaviour and aggressively engage to take advantage of his still active shield NOW.

Hmm.,.. maby worth another spamthread in abyss ^^

Septimus
09-29-2012, 12:08 PM
When it was 1,2 seconds, I could still escape sometimes before getting killed. I could roll away when he comes with knife jump (means I had to predict his behaviour) or sidestep/shoot when he started firing with sigma or something.
I could also just survive with luck, because he used Rask to kill me and missed some shots in the 1,2 seconds time window he had. But with 1,6, the chance to do that is drastically reduced.

In rough numbers I would say: with 1,2 seconds stun I had a 30% chance to survive stun due to enemy inability to hit a not moving target or my own skill in predicting his attempt to kill me and counter it when out of stun immeaditly. With 1,6 seconds its only 5-10% chance to survive and even then, survival is less likely when out of stun because of extreme low health.

What you just said even proof and solidify my point even further. While it is true that player would be low health, there is many way to have a high regeneration capability to survive long enough to taken down your enemies which class profiles do not have it.

For example, custom profiles user with RAI, EM, Electric Shield along with Wood and Climax/Prank. How much does the regeneration capability is by now?

I have seen lot's of match whereby player was shock and kill, but mostly all of it was class user only. You can said I am wrong about this, but when you seen majority of custom user said the shock duration is fine; you can clearly take the hint the problem lies on classes profiles which are currently lack of the necessary element to counter it.

If you think I am wrong from this perspective point of view, I welcome you to spectate match frequently. You would notice most high end level player who doesn't get killed by shock grenade occasionally are mostly custom user.

It is also one of the few many tools that allowed some classes type to compete safely in close range against juggernaut builder. I am sure you do not want to use a class with low resistant such as Outlaw to shock your enemy in close proximity only to have little to zero effect against him mainly because of his high resistant and shock proof build.

If shock grenade was really way too inbalance like you said, there would be a complain long time ago after an patch update. But why we doesn't seen any complain until by you recently? Cause you are the only one who experiences and notice the problem due to the lack of classes with sufficient counter to it and refused to use custom for a change.